The Rise of Corporate Podcasts: Why Audio Is Internal Comms' Most Human Channel

00:00:00: If you're a big company, you maybe have

00:00:01: 10,000, 20,000 people in your organization

00:00:04: that have stories to tell,

00:00:06: that have life experience.

00:00:08: There's so many good stories in there and

00:00:10: bringing those stories to life,

00:00:11: that is the essence of your organization.

00:00:13: Because, in the end,

00:00:14: we can all have the same great tools.

00:00:16: Every company in the end,

00:00:18: can use Staffbase

00:00:19: that makes it really easy

00:00:20: to have the foundational level,

00:00:22: but then

00:00:23: the content that goes in,

00:00:25: there should be a human touch to it,

00:00:26: and that's the people in

00:00:27: your organization, right?

00:00:35: Hi, and welcome to You've Got Comms

00:00:37: the podcast for IC pros shaping the future of work.

00:00:41: I'm Emma Fischer,

00:00:42: Staffbase content marketing manager,

00:00:44: and your host for today.

00:00:46: So in this episode, we're diving into

00:00:49: one of the fastest-growing

00:00:50: internal communications tools, and that is corporate podcasts.

00:00:55: So who better to join me today than

00:00:56: Maximilian Conrad, or Max,

00:00:59: the co-founder and CEO of Hypecast.

00:01:02: And Max and I actually

00:01:04: already did this one time.

00:01:06: However, we thought it was audio, it's also video, and our lights went out.

00:01:11: So we're really happy for our unofficial second go today,

00:01:14: in which I can correct your bio now.

00:01:17: You are not a lifelong audio nerd, we're going to say lifelong audio enthusiast,

00:01:21: part-time podcaster, startup founder, and a really cool guy, I'd have to say.

00:01:27: And I would love to hear, in your words, "What do you guys do at Hypecast?"

00:01:31: Thank you so much.

00:01:31: Thank you, Emma, for having us.

00:01:33: Yes, that's when you get into real-life podcasting,

00:01:37: there's always many variables that you have to take care of.

00:01:42: And well, we kind of messed up on that one.

00:01:44: So thanks for doing this again.

00:01:47: Well, what do we do at Hypecast?

00:01:50: We focus on corporate audio, but if you want to do a broader

00:01:54: scope of what we do is really all about stakeholder communication.

00:01:58: So nowadays, how do I engage better with the different

00:02:02: stakeholders that I have in my organization internally, externally,

00:02:07: and then reach them in

00:02:10: an authentic way, in a very

00:02:13: personal way to really get your messages across.

00:02:17: Because that's what companies struggle with nowadays.

00:02:20: Any yeah, that's why we founded Hypecast, to consult you on that,

00:02:24: to help you create the right format, and then, in the end,

00:02:27: as an underlying infrastructure, build the entire software.

00:02:32: So it's the software that we're recording this podcast episode on as well.

00:02:36: So that's what we mainly do,

00:02:39: and then help your company find a voice.

00:02:43: It's pretty cool, because now I could see both parts of it, because we first

00:02:46: recorded in the podcasting van, which I really liked this experience.

00:02:50: And you can check my LinkedIn.

00:02:52: There's proof we did this.

00:02:54: And now we get to do it on this platform.

00:02:55: So I like seeing both sides of that.

00:02:58: And this is a perfect intro, because I'd love to get started

00:03:01: today with the case for corporate audio.

00:03:04: So we live in a time where even political candidates are on podcasts.

00:03:08: And things have changed so much, I'd say.

00:03:10: When did you start, a decade ago, or first get into podcasts?

00:03:14: I think there's been so much change.

00:03:16: Why would you say so many companies now turn to internal podcasts?

00:03:20: And how is that changing the way we receive information?

00:03:24: I think overall,

00:03:26: podcasting has now turned into a mainstream medium.

00:03:28: There's some studies that were just released a couple of weeks ago,

00:03:33: around that now more than 50% of Americans

00:03:37: listen to a podcast at least once a month.

00:03:40: So it's more than half of the population.

00:03:44: We're seeing growing numbers across Europe, Asia, everywhere.

00:03:47: Now, one of the biggest markets as well, Brazil.

00:03:49: So podcast is now a mainstream medium.

00:03:52: And usually, what happens when mainstream media is established,

00:03:56: it moves into this corporate world.

00:03:57: We have seen that with

00:03:57: We have seen that with

00:03:59: video, we've seen that with social media now.

00:04:02: Staffbase is a social intranet platform.

00:04:05: And you know, we started off with social media.

00:04:07: So we started off with Facebook and all those kinds of things.

00:04:10: It's the same with, you know,

00:04:11: we all started off, the older generation, started off on ICQ.

00:04:15: And now we have Slack, or we have Teams, and those kind of things.

00:04:18: So once a medium is established enough, it moves into the corporate world.

00:04:22: And that's what we're seeing with podcasting as well.

00:04:25: And it's moving into the corporate world

00:04:28: for the same reasons why we love podcasts, as an individual.

00:04:33: It's very authentic.

00:04:34: It's very close to the ear, and then it's very intimate.

00:04:38: And why do people listen to podcasts? It's to get information,

00:04:43: to be updated on the latest news, and to be entertained.

00:04:46: And so that's the same way we want to consume information from our organization.

00:04:53: We're tired of the 175th email

00:04:56: a day that we can't really manage anymore.

00:05:01: And then, compared to video, which is a big thing now

00:05:04: for a lot of people, I think James Cridland from Podnews said it really well.

00:05:10: Podcasts are always great, or audio in general is always great.

00:05:13: It is the tool for your ears while the eyes are being busy.

00:05:16: So it's a medium that you can consume passively while managing

00:05:20: other tasks, while commuting, while taking a lunch break.

00:05:24: And then think about organizations, and that's the main thing.

00:05:29: We are trying to reach people in organizations now as well,

00:05:33: that are non-desk workers.

00:05:34: Especially in Germany, but a lot of other countries as well,

00:05:38: a lot of organizations generally think about their HQ

00:05:42: when they think about "What kind of tools we need, how do we engage people?"

00:05:44: But for a lot of companies, if you think about auto manufacturers,

00:05:49: the smallest amount of people or retailers, the smallest amount of

00:05:52: people works in HQ; the rest works distributed non-desk jobs.

00:05:57: So they don't have an email. They don't have a screen.

00:06:00: How do I reach them? How do I engage with them?

00:06:02: So audio is a great way of doing that because you have your phone in your pocket

00:06:07: and can listen to a podcast easily while doing something else.

00:06:11: So those are a number of reasons

00:06:15: why podcasts move into the corporate world.

00:06:19: I love what you said about the passive consumption

00:06:22: because I'm really into cinema,

00:06:24: and I saw some other cinema people, they were commenting on a forum.

00:06:27: So many people these days are used to passive consumption

00:06:31: that they just want to

00:06:32: not look at a movie, and then they miss all of the things in films

00:06:35: that are not being said.

00:06:36: People are like,

00:06:37: "I'm really confused watching this film."

00:06:38: They're like, "Well, you were on your phone the whole time,

00:06:40: and you're only listening to the dialogue."

00:06:42: So it's like you're tapping into how that can actually work to

00:06:46: cater to people where they're at.

00:06:48: I do think people should get back into focusing on things, but not all the time.

00:06:52: Sometimes you're like, "Hey, I'm doing something."

00:06:54: Maybe you're out working and you can listen to this podcast.

00:06:56: I listen to them when I'm doing my makeup or commuting.

00:07:00: And that's a very good point.

00:07:02: We always say, now you have a toolbox of things. There's

00:07:06: groups of people, and there's

00:07:07: messages that are great and work well in written form.

00:07:11: There's great things that you can do via video,

00:07:15: and there's great things you can do audio-only.

00:07:17: So the example of video is always the reference that I use.

00:07:22: So I don't know.

00:07:24: What's your favorite movie?

00:07:26: "The Shining."

00:07:27: "The Shining." probably works really well because you have

00:07:33: the visual component to it because it can create this scenery.

00:07:39: Would it work as an audio-only?

00:07:41: Maybe, maybe not.

00:07:44: Probably not.

00:07:46: My other favorite, "Paris, Texas." No,

00:07:48: if you're not watching that film, you're just like, "What's happening?"

00:07:51: Exactly. And then

00:07:53: if you think about the Marvel movies, if you think about James Bond, there's

00:07:56: so many movies where you need that visual component

00:07:58: to get the whole story, those blockbuster movies.

00:08:02: But then think about

00:08:04: your evening news.

00:08:05: Think about a talk show.

00:08:07: You don't need video for that.

00:08:08: You can listen to the conversations that people have, like a talk show.

00:08:12: That works really well in audio-only,

00:08:14: and if companies

00:08:16: take that into consideration, understand each channel that they like

00:08:20: catering to, then they would understand, "Hey, there's a few things.

00:08:24: We don't need the nine o'clock video conference from the CEO,

00:08:30: where everybody has to attend, because you can do it, first of all, on demand.

00:08:34: You can do it audio-only, and then people can consume it

00:08:38: on their own time, and you don't get everybody, 80,000 people

00:08:41: in your organization, to join a video call at nine o'clock on Monday morning."

00:08:45: You don't have to because that usually upsets people, instead of

00:08:51: bringing them closer together, right?

00:08:52: But then there's moments where it's a town hall, where it's a video message

00:08:55: that you need for product presentations, for example, or other stuff.

00:09:01: Always make sure that you get the right message for the right channel.

00:09:04: I really like something else you've said, which is that podcasting

00:09:07: is the most human channel, and I do copywriting, and in corporate copywriting.

00:09:12: I can't put my personality.

00:09:13: It's not about me; it's about the brand, always.

00:09:16: But I do think podcasting, a CEO shouldn't

00:09:19: enter a podcast, you can correct me, with media training.

00:09:22: I think it's probably better if they're giving a message

00:09:24: to their company that they're being authentic.

00:09:27: So what problems do you think that podcasting

00:09:30: can solve for people by offering this unique platform?

00:09:36: Again, I think we have to

00:09:37: start a bit earlier in that chain.

00:09:42: If you look at Gen Z now, when they decide to work for a company,

00:09:47: it's not the brand name or the company logo on the big building.

00:09:52: It's, "Does senior leadership have the same values as me?

00:09:56: Do they have certain

00:10:01: convictions about certain topics?

00:10:03: Are they

00:10:05: representative of me as a person?" And then it doesn't really matter

00:10:10: what kind of logo is on the building.

00:10:13: And so that's what companies need to understand.

00:10:16: So yes, you're right.

00:10:17: You can't go in with just media training and giving you the marketing

00:10:21: communications talk. You need to be authentic.

00:10:24: You need to be honest. You need to be open.

00:10:26: And that's what podcasts are really good for.

00:10:30: That's why those,

00:10:32: where

00:10:32: people are just chatting, work really well, still where it's

00:10:36: just no topic, and then people randomly talk together.

00:10:40: It's the most human form of connection, right?

00:10:43: Where you have just, an honest conversation.

00:10:46: So that's what people always offer is like,

00:10:48: "Can we just have an honest conversation?" And that's what a podcast is great for.

00:10:53: And then, if we think about it in the corporate world, I think it's

00:10:57: also a paradigm shift that needs to happen, where

00:11:01: nowadays, we're all focused on the external.

00:11:04: And then we do an external first, and then we use that for internal.

00:11:08: But think about building your messaging and being authentic and building

00:11:11: your narrative and everything from an inside-out view,

00:11:15: where I start

00:11:16: with the closest people to me, which most of the time is my employees.

00:11:20: And usually, they're also the most critical

00:11:22: because they know what's going on.

00:11:24: Because they know that not everything is fluff, that not everything is going

00:11:27: well, they know how much you struggle to get a new product shipped,

00:11:31: and all the bullshit that happened beforehand.

00:11:34: So then you get the message right.

00:11:37: Then, if you convinced your people internally, you have ambassadors

00:11:41: that go out and are becoming brand ambassadors on the outside world.

00:11:46: And also, you get your message right and can really be

00:11:51: convincingly authentic

00:11:53: and find your own personality, and find your own voice,

00:11:56: and then go to the outside world, and then sit on a podcast or in a talk

00:12:00: show and talk the way you learned it from the inside-out perspective.

00:12:05: show and talk the way you learned it from the inside-out perspective.

00:12:05: And podcasts are a great way of doing that.

00:12:07: And then, they're not live.

00:12:09: You can always edit if something didn't go the way you wanted it to go.

00:12:13: What I really like is the authenticity because I don't know if this is

00:12:16: controversial, but I am personally really sick of LinkedIn messages,

00:12:20: and they're all in this little formula, it's like,

00:12:23: first line, and then it's like line, line, line, line.

00:12:26: When I first joined the company and I was active on LinkedIn, I'm like, "Sure.

00:12:30: They don't want paragraphs.

00:12:31: Things were like this, this, this." And it does perform better.

00:12:34: At one point, you're like, "Oh my gosh, I just want someone to say something

00:12:37: instead of having to craft it." So when it comes to authenticity,

00:12:43: what advice could you give for something that's like,

00:12:45: "This is an authentic podcast, and this is like a check-a-box"?

00:12:49: Because I think sometimes things come across as really staged

00:12:53: if someone's trying too hard to be authentic, but it's trained.

00:12:55: Is it just like you go in blindly, or is there any other advice?

00:13:01: I think,

00:13:02: like from a content creation perspective,

00:13:05: stop writing scripts.

00:13:08: Stop writing scripts.

00:13:09: Have your notes down.

00:13:11: Have your bullet points down that you want to discuss.

00:13:14: Beforehand, the way we did,

00:13:17: "Hey, we're recording something." You told me, "I want to talk about this.

00:13:21: I want to talk about this.

00:13:21: I want to talk about this." So I have a chance to prepare and

00:13:26: come up with what is interesting that we want to talk about.

00:13:29: So we kind of have a few talking points.

00:13:31: And then, within that, we have an open conversation,

00:13:34: and maybe one of the topics doesn't make it into the episode

00:13:37: because we're keeping a very organic conversation going.

00:13:42: And that's the main thing when it comes to content creation.

00:13:46: Don't write everything down.

00:13:48: Have your talking points ready.

00:13:50: That's the one thing. And I think the other part is,

00:13:53: and you mentioned it,

00:13:54: and I like it very much when you say it like, "This performs

00:13:58: really well." And it follows a certain formula,

00:14:03: but then it's all based on the KPIs you're looking at.

00:14:06: And usually, in social media, the KPIs that we all look for is impressions,

00:14:10: and so reaching high numbers of people.

00:14:14: But I think we need, again, to rethink "What are the relevant KPIs?

00:14:19: Is it like maximum reach of my content?

00:14:22: Or is it maximum engagement within the community that I’m trying to reach?"

00:14:26: So if I'm building a niche product

00:14:29: or a special interest product,

00:14:32: it might be fine . . .

00:14:33: Like if I want to create a podcast for the CEO of

00:14:38: every S&P 500 company,

00:14:40: my audience will only be 500 people

00:14:45: and maybe a few more, but it's not going to be 10,000.

00:14:48: But I'm catering to a specific audience and then

00:14:53: building content for those people.

00:14:56: What are they interested in?

00:14:58: To interact with your community to really build a product

00:15:01: or a conversation that is close to your audience

00:15:06: is a great way of doing that. So understand your audience.

00:15:10: Build something that is for a specific audience.

00:15:13: Don't focus on maximizing reach, but maximizing engagement

00:15:17: within your audience, and then get rid of transcripts

00:15:22: or scripts for your podcast and just have talking points.

00:15:24: I think those are just a few things.

00:15:27: And then, of course,

00:15:29: it won't happen from Episode 1; it's practice.

00:15:32: So persistence

00:15:35: and repetition, and then ideation,

00:15:39: those are the things that's when you get really good at something.

00:15:42: You know, I recorded my first podcast episode 2015, I think.

00:15:47: When I go back and listen to it,

00:15:50: I feel like, "Oh my God, what was I doing?" And now people

00:15:53: say, "Oh, you have such a great voice for podcasting.

00:15:57: And you're so good in it." Yeah, because I've probably, on my own, recorded

00:16:01: over 300 or 400 podcast episodes, I didn't start off that way.

00:16:05: So it's about repetition, training yourself,

00:16:08: and then finding your voice along the way.

00:16:11: So get started, don't go for the 100%.

00:16:14: Do the 80%, and keep going.

00:16:17: I know we had, for our other podcast, a former Barack Obama

00:16:20: speechwriter on, and he said that he's amazing.

00:16:23: His name is Terry, and he has a book, "Say It Well." And he was like,

00:16:27: "Even Barack Obama wasn't born this naturally gifted speaker." So that's what I think.

00:16:31: I'm like, "Okay, if Barack Obama learned to become a speaker,

00:16:35: then I think a lot of us can, because he's such an incredible speaker."

00:16:40: 100%.

00:16:42: Not just the speaking on its own,

00:16:43: but I think speaking with your own voice is the thing.

00:16:47: Don't follow a formula, trying to figure out who you are as a person.

00:16:53: What really makes you stand out?

00:16:55: What are your convictions, again?

00:16:56: What are the things that you stand for that you value?

00:17:02: And build that into your conversation.

00:17:04: And then that brings out the way you talk.

00:17:08: What references do you use?

00:17:09: What sayings do you use?

00:17:12: And that really makes it personal to you.

00:17:14: And that makes it then authentic.

00:17:17: And that's what makes it stick in people's heads.

00:17:19: It's not the well-crafted, AI-written email that everybody has.

00:17:25: Then you're going to be average.

00:17:26: And then your message is going to be average.

00:17:29: And people are going to treat it that way.

00:17:31: If you want to stick out, just find your voice.

00:17:32: And I think, especially with leadership communications,

00:17:35: there's a lot of people out there, CEOs and senior leadership,

00:17:40: that really need to work on not fitting into this

00:17:45: structure that we have,

00:17:46: but developing a style.

00:17:50: The way you develop a management style, that same way

00:17:53: you need to develop a communication style that works for you.

00:17:57: Maybe you're an introvert.

00:17:58: Yeah, then find the way of still making it work.

00:18:01: If you're an extrovert, yes, do something else.

00:18:04: Yeah, I was watching the newest John Oliver episode,

00:18:07: and they were talking about . . .

00:18:08: I can't think of the word,

00:18:09: but it's like AI spam, basically, and so much stuff on Instagram,

00:18:12: on social media, it's AI now, and how the regulations are allowing this.

00:18:17: And I think one of the best ways

00:18:18: we can rebel against that, or rebel against,

00:18:20: "Hey, the LinkedIn algorithm is so repetitive," well, we can change that.

00:18:23: Like you said, are we looking at the right metrics for success?

00:18:26: And we always have the choice.

00:18:28: And one thing that now stands out to me about podcasting,

00:18:31: through this conversation, is it's more evergreen content,

00:18:34: because if you're jumping on a trend to an image or a meme,

00:18:39: I even suggested at one point, like "The White Lotus,"

00:18:41: "But we have to put this out right now, because "The White Lotus"

00:18:44: is hot; next week, it's not." But if you have a podcast episode,

00:18:47: you can tune in at any point and listen to people talking about a subject.

00:18:51: So I think it stands up better over time, especially because it's not trying

00:18:55: too hard.

00:18:56: I had a conversation with our director of

00:18:59: consulting yesterday, and we were talking about,

00:19:04: with blockbuster movies, you create a moment in time,

00:19:07: and that's hot, and that runs for a couple of days or weeks.

00:19:11: But if you think about a TV show or series that has substance

00:19:16: that is well-thought-out, like, I don't know, "Game of Thrones," "Stranger Things" . . .

00:19:19: "Sopranos."

00:19:20: "Sopranos," They might be out

00:19:22: of the conversation for a little bit,

00:19:24: but they continue to stay in our minds.

00:19:27: That's kind of like how I see podcasts: as a series that is never really super,

00:19:32: super flashy, and hot, but that continues to stick in your head,

00:19:36: and that builds the relationship.

00:19:39: And then that really helps you get your message

00:19:42: across, because it's, again, about repetition.

00:19:45: It's about keeping people engaged.

00:19:47: And so, that is one thing that I

00:19:51: see as a valid point for podcasting as well.

00:19:54: And it's also a little bit of maybe a counterculture to where we're now

00:20:00: saying the attention span on TikTok

00:20:03: is down to 1.2 seconds.

00:20:06: So you need to cram the hook into the first 1.2 seconds.

00:20:10: So people will just swipe across your video,

00:20:13: and that's not working with podcasts. So

00:20:17: if you go into podcasts, people generally listen to,

00:20:21: on average, 45 minutes to an episode.

00:20:25: So think about how many TikTok videos

00:20:28: you need to create, how many Instagram postings

00:20:31: you need to create to engage somebody with your brand

00:20:35: or your content for 45 minutes straight.

00:20:39: That's nearly impossible.

00:20:41: Because people are also looking for this deep dive, this conversation.

00:20:46: Also having where sometimes the conversation runs off a little bit,

00:20:50: and it's just not just crammed

00:20:53: into like two minutes, super substantial

00:20:56: information, where everybody's like, "We need to condense the information.

00:21:01: We need to pack more information in one minute."

00:21:03: Yeah, but people are not going to consume more information

00:21:06: because you just crammed it into a smaller space.

00:21:08: You just made it so tight

00:21:09: that it feels like it's going to burst, and nobody's going to remember anything.

00:21:12: So give them a chance to learn something

00:21:16: because you don't do your master's degree in 45 minutes.

00:21:20: You spend a few years on it because you need to

00:21:24: get into the groove, so that's the same with podcasting, I would say.

00:21:29: And then, when you have that 45-minute episode,

00:21:31: do you have all this opportunity for repurposing?

00:21:33: Yes!

00:21:34: So could you explain that for a minute?

00:21:36: If someone's like, "Hey, I want to try this." What do you do?

00:21:39: You don't just take that 45-minute podcast.

00:21:40: There's other things you can do.

00:21:42: Yeah, exactly.

00:21:43: So we're recording video-audio, right?

00:21:47: So we know video, generally, attention spans

00:21:49: range from one and a half to two and a half minutes.

00:21:53: Probably because we are doing a great podcast,

00:21:55: everybody will stay in for the duration of this podcast,

00:21:59: the 40 minutes that we're going to do, and they love you as a host.

00:22:02: So that's different, but usually, it's one and a half, two minutes.

00:22:05: But so we're going to have probably a ton of great snippets

00:22:09: that we can repurpose from this video that you can use, as short form video

00:22:13: to get attention to a certain topic that we're talking about,

00:22:17: or get people hooked on, "Hey, if you're interested in this topic,

00:22:21: you can do the long version,

00:22:23: and you don't necessarily need video for the long version

00:22:26: because the conversation that we're having works without video.

00:22:29: Again, you should watch it with the video

00:22:32: because there's two very good-looking people on this podcast.

00:22:36: But if not, then it's still two smart people on this podcast, so

00:22:40: you can listen to them."

00:22:41: And there's a fly sometimes going around in the flat.

00:22:44: There's a fly. I've seen it, too.

00:22:47: Yeah, you could see the fly. It's kind of like a little gimmick.

00:22:49: Because in our tool, everything is transcribed also,

00:22:52: you can repurpose the written content for blog posts, for also,

00:22:56: "What are the messages that are in there that I can repurpose

00:23:00: to write my next postings?" or maybe there's some interesting questions

00:23:04: in there that I can use and say, "Hey, what should be a follow-up podcast?

00:23:08: Who should I be talking to?" There's a bunch of stuff that then

00:23:11: AI can do and repurpose the written content to a ton of stuff, or

00:23:16: just take the whole thing and say, "Hey, I want to have this in German, French,"

00:23:22: I don't know, whatever language you think of

00:23:24: and do an automatic translation into a different language

00:23:27: and have that as a podcast or as an executive summary ready.

00:23:31: So in that pyramid of content production, you have the long form with the video,

00:23:36: and then you can repurpose it into probably this episode,

00:23:40: into a month worth's of content

00:23:42: And see, I think that's also a really good case

00:23:44: of how to use AI, because at this point, I am sick to death.

00:23:48: I don't care if it takes me longer.

00:23:49: I'm going to do my content myself because they've released the MIT study.

00:23:54: I think you have 38% less brain function if you're just using AI, and you just

00:23:58: you yourself just start copy-pasting, copy-pasting.

00:24:00: So it's like,

00:24:01: create the content yourself and then use AI to help automate the distribution.

00:24:05: I think that is . . .

00:24:06: Exactly.

00:24:08: And like I said,

00:24:10: if you think about communications teams, especially internal communication teams,

00:24:15: they are always, usually always low on resources,

00:24:19: either team sizes or the resources that they have.

00:24:23: So going in and recording something authentic that we do, and then

00:24:28: having all those core messages in there, and then they don't have to go in.

00:24:33: You know, the AI can give you suggestions on what is good snippets.

00:24:37: You can always use other parts as well, but it already gives you, kind of like,

00:24:41: you're not starting on the blank canvas; you're starting with a few things already.

00:24:45: And sometimes, 80-20 rule is good enough.

00:24:49: Sometimes I just need something.

00:24:51: It will help me to identify certain things because

00:24:54: I just don't have the time, then it's great.

00:24:57: But it gives you a starting point, and then I can get into the groove.

00:25:00: So I learn about it and then I can adjust it and become better off

00:25:05: using AI as a

00:25:06: gadget and as a helper for me to create content,

00:25:10: and finding, again, that specific voice that I'm looking for.

00:25:15: But yeah, I'm 100% in agreement with you that if you just go in

00:25:19: and try to create everything from AI, you're just going to get to

00:25:23: a very average level of content quality, and then

00:25:27: it can be subsidized by any brand name

00:25:29: because everybody can do it, and then it's just plain and boring.

00:25:33: I think it is brain rot, too.

00:25:35: I'm like, "Okay, everything's done really quickly.

00:25:36: I did 10 times the amount, but it's just mediocre."

00:25:40: Exactly.

00:25:40: And I think that's, again, podcasts, a great way of . . .

00:25:44: And I think that's, again, podcasts, a great way of . . .

00:25:44: Like think about

00:25:46: if you're a big company, you maybe have 10,000, 20,000 people in your organization

00:25:51: that have stories to tell, that have experience, life experience.

00:25:57: There's so many good stories in there.

00:26:01: If you go back and think about

00:26:02: the different conversations over lunch that you had with colleagues,

00:26:07: there's always a moment, or at the last summer party or Christmas party,

00:26:11: there's always somebody that you meet randomly that you haven't known

00:26:14: from your organization.

00:26:16: And then you're like, "Oh, that's what you do?

00:26:18: This is your hobby?

00:26:19: Oh, you have done this?" There's the other great story where it's like,

00:26:22: bringing those stories to life, that is the essence of your organization,

00:26:25: because, in the end, we can all have the same great tools.

00:26:29: Everybody, every company in the end, can use Staffbase

00:26:33: that makes it really easy to have the foundational level,

00:26:37: but then the content that goes in, there should be

00:26:41: a human touch to it, and that's the people in your organization, right?

00:26:44: And it's the same with,

00:26:46: we can have a great podcasting tool, but if there's garbage going in

00:26:50: what we speak into this microphone,

00:26:52: the best tool doesn't help you to get it to a great level.

00:26:55: So it's like the tools are great,

00:26:57: but we can all get them, so there's no differentiator in that.

00:27:01: But then

00:27:02: the people that I hire for my organization, the people that work

00:27:05: in my organization, they, in the end, make up what is why

00:27:11: other people want to join the company, why my customers are,

00:27:15: they're in a people business, why they're buying with us

00:27:17: because in the end, they feel like, "Hey, I trust that person." So

00:27:20: bringing out those stories in the end, that's where you need to go in,

00:27:24: and podcasting is a great way of exactly bringing that out.

00:27:28: I think people actually do want internal podcasts because

00:27:31: when I said, "Hey, this is our third Staffbase podcast we're doing today,

00:27:34: the You've Got Comms,

00:27:35: and someone was like, "Oh, are we doing an internal podcast?"

00:27:38: when I mentioned a new podcast. And I was like,

00:27:40: "No, but that would actually be pretty cool." I'd like to see . . .

00:27:44: I know our CEO, he said something to rally us.

00:27:48: He was just not like, "Fuck, yeah,"

00:27:49: but he did say "Fuck." He was just like, "Let's fucking do it" or something.

00:27:53: Everyone was like,

00:27:55: "Hell, yeah!" Like we like to see the CEO

00:27:59: let loose a little bit and show that he's rallying.

00:28:04: Yeah, and I think that's a great point.

00:28:07: So I think there's a strange perception

00:28:11: of leadership being perfect all the time.

00:28:14: "I can't make any mistakes"

00:28:16: and all that, where it's like, I think people are not looking for that.

00:28:20: They rather have a CEO, where they understand, "Hey, he addresses issues.

00:28:24: He has emotions when he is excited." I've been watching a bit of Steve Ballmer

00:28:29: content over the last few weeks. And to me,

00:28:32: it's like he's jumping across stage, the former CEO of Microsoft.

00:28:36: So he's jumping across stage like a crazy person.

00:28:38: And he's super excited about stuff.

00:28:41: As you think about it at the time where he was the CEO,

00:28:44: it's like that was not seen of, but that worked for him.

00:28:48: It doesn't work for Bill Gates.

00:28:50: It didn't work for Steve Jobs.

00:28:52: Steve Jobs did a very different approach, but I think they all found their own . . .

00:28:57: They were very close to their personality, and they were showing emotions,

00:29:01: and they were showing like, "I'm totally behind this.

00:29:03: I love this.

00:29:04: And maybe I don't know what to do with this.

00:29:07: And you know what, this is where I failed, and this was a fuck up" or something.

00:29:12: I think that's what people want to see because they want to work for that human

00:29:15: being and not this

00:29:17: over-huge, fake CEO type that never fails, always wears

00:29:24: a suit, is always robotic. People are not looking for that anymore.

00:29:28: And I think that's what leadership needs to understand,

00:29:32: that the way we shift as a society,

00:29:36: it becoming more informal,

00:29:40: I think you have to become

00:29:42: that in your communications as well.

00:29:45: The first time I used emojis in a WhatsApp

00:29:48: message, sending to my boss when I was still

00:29:52: working as an employee, I felt like,

00:29:55: "This feels so strange, and this feels so like I'm crossing

00:29:59: a boundary." Today, WhatsApp as a channel in communications

00:30:03: is widely accepted, and emojis and reply GIFs

00:30:07: in a corporate context, those used to be the gamers doing it and the nerds.

00:30:13: And now, reply GIFs are in Teams.

00:30:15: They're built into Teams.

00:30:18: Yeah, in Slack, you save your own emojis, everyone . . .

00:30:20: Exactly.

00:30:21: Everybody does emojis.

00:30:22: So 10 years ago, that wasn't thought of.

00:30:25: Like that was impossible to think about that.

00:30:27: That's very true.

00:30:28: I saved all the "Always Sunny in Philadelphia" reactions as Slack

00:30:32: reactions, and I use those, and it's like . . .

00:30:34: It's my favorite TV show, by the way.

00:30:35: Oh, nice, nice. A man of culture.

00:30:38: Exactly. But you know,

00:30:39: thinking about that, that we're becoming a bit

00:30:41: more informal, it's not just leaving away

00:30:45: the tie in your suit, but it's the way you communicate.

00:30:49: Because in the end, successful product launches, successful hiring,

00:30:54: successful team management always comes down to

00:30:59: "How do I communicate this?" Transformation is . . .

00:31:02: Like why so many transformational projects are struggling to be successful?

00:31:06: Because we don't understand how to communicate correctly.

00:31:11: You know, use the tools to do that and learn about communications.

00:31:14: It always feels like,

00:31:16: "Yes, we all know how to speak, but we don't know all how to communicate."

00:31:20: I was going to put you on the spot and be like, "Do you have an example

00:31:23: of really bad corporate communication?" But I just saw one the other day.

00:31:27: It was Mark Zuckerberg, and he was doing a presentation to Meta people.

00:31:31: He was just like,

00:31:31: "And we are on an animals theme, and we will go with the animals theme

00:31:35: and do an animal for our next thing." It was just really robotic and uninspired.

00:31:40: So I was like,

00:31:42: "He's definitely not known to be inspiring,"

00:31:44: but can you think of the opposite end, where you're like,

00:31:46: "Wow, this was an amazing corporate message"?

00:31:49: I think you had an example before that, even was about the Ukraine war.

00:31:53: Yeah.

00:31:54: So one of our customers, E.ON, a huge energy company in Europe,

00:32:00: so they're in the energy sector, right?

00:32:02: So when the war in Ukraine started, it was a huge, huge

00:32:06: topic on many levels because they have a team in the Ukraine.

00:32:11: They have energy . . .

00:32:12: Like the gas coming in via the pipeline from Russia.

00:32:14: So they were, "What is happening on an operational level as an organization?

00:32:19: What is happening to our team in the Ukraine with that?

00:32:23: And eventually, what is happening to me as a person working here?

00:32:28: Like how does this affect me?

00:32:30: How does this war affect

00:32:31: me working here, but also as a human, and everything?" And so,

00:32:36: they were looking to react fast, and they were looking to react,

00:32:41: addressing all those topics where they didn't know yet, where they didn't

00:32:47: have all the answers yet, of course, because it was just happening back

00:32:54: when it started.

00:32:54: And also,

00:32:56: they said, "We can't just go out and send emails to everybody

00:33:00: because it doesn't really reflect on that this is a very emotional topic,

00:33:06: and we need to calm everybody down and tell them where we're at." So they created

00:33:11: a podcast, an internal podcast, around that topic to cover those aspects

00:33:15: and also to continuously update on what is happening

00:33:19: on the things that they were able to say

00:33:22: and let them know what they didn't know.

00:33:26: And of course,

00:33:27: there were a few things that they couldn't talk about at certain times,

00:33:30: but they also addressed that.

00:33:32: And that is still one of their most successful internal campaigns

00:33:35: that they ever did to address a topic.

00:33:39: And even though it's a very

00:33:42: emotional topic,

00:33:44: it's super sad that we have to use this as an example

00:33:47: of a good way of communicating, but it does happen.

00:33:50: And we do have those moments

00:33:55: where tragedy happens

00:33:57: and where things are very uncertain, and then finding the right way

00:34:03: of addressing an entire organization in different countries,

00:34:09: that is a great way of how you manage this

00:34:13: because you are, as an organization,

00:34:17: a huge part of an individual's life.

00:34:20: Usually, or most of the time, you cover, on average,

00:34:25: eight hours a day of your life.

00:34:27: And if you think about the other eight hours I sleep, then

00:34:30: I have eight hours of free time.

00:34:31: One-third of the day I'm going to spend with my employer.

00:34:36: So you're going to play an important role.

00:34:38: I'm going to look to you for information as well.

00:34:40: And I look for you for

00:34:45: a lot of things, trust,

00:34:49: security and safety, and all that.

00:34:51: So understanding that is really a key thing

00:34:55: of drafting your communication around certain topics.

00:34:59: That was so nicely said, but now I really have to get this reference in.

00:35:02: We said this last time, and it's, if you don't understand yet the case

00:35:06: for podcasts, you have to look up the "Key & Peele" sketch, "Text Confusion," and

00:35:10: then see that what you're trying to say doesn't always translate.

00:35:15: Someone's like, "What's up?" Someone's like, "Oh, what's up?

00:35:18: What's their attitude?"

00:35:19: Oh, yes. I love that sketch.

00:35:21: I think that's the best way to connect with people

00:35:23: and serious topics, just let people know what's going on.

00:35:26: But also, was it you who mentioned there was someone, said

00:35:29: it was just a podcast, and it was the CEO eating pizza or something?

00:35:34: And it was just really casual, and it's like people also want that.

00:35:38: Yeah, 100%. There's another great example.

00:35:41: It's a coating company,

00:35:43: like coating, like the

00:35:47: paint, the coating of buildings, and stuff like that.

00:35:50: Coating, yeah.

00:35:53: So he does a podcast where he does his Friday pizza run for the family,

00:35:59: has the phone, and a clip-on microphone like you have in his car.

00:36:05: Drives to get pizza for the family.

00:36:07: And while he does that, he gives an update to the organization, saying,

00:36:10: "Hey, it's Friday. Week is over.

00:36:14: What was important this week?

00:36:15: And what are we looking for?

00:36:17: What is going to be important next week?

00:36:18: And then in the meantime, this week, I'm on the diet.

00:36:22: I'm getting the salad, the girls want, I don't know, a pepperoni pizza.

00:36:27: And my wife is opting for, you know,

00:36:29: wants to be a bit adventurous, and goes for, I don't know,

00:36:33: pineapple or something on pizza." So it does the humanization of him,

00:36:39: showing him as a family person, as something that you can relate to.

00:36:44: Eating is something that we all do.

00:36:47: And then I can also squeeze in like,

00:36:49: "Hey, how was the week?" Do a recap of the week, and so I can listen and say,

00:36:53: "Oh, that was going on in the organization," because you might have been

00:36:58: buried in a project, and you

00:37:00: didn't have the eyes to look around what was going on in the organization.

00:37:05: And we often have that feeling of like, "I'm so swamped with what I have to do.

00:37:09: I don't have time to catch up.

00:37:10: So I don't know what's going on so I feel disconnected.

00:37:13: Because I'm always feeling like I'm in that hamster wheel,

00:37:16: and never get any chance to look left and right."

00:37:20: And that's what companies complain about as well.

00:37:22: That's why

00:37:22: they thought, "Hey, we need to bring everybody

00:37:24: back into the office." I don't think that's

00:37:26: how you solve this issue of feeling disconnected from your organization.

00:37:30: It's, "I'm super swamped with everything I have to do.

00:37:34: I never understand what is happening in the rest of my organization,

00:37:38: because I never have the chance to speak to anybody."

00:37:40: So it's such a small project.

00:37:42: It's so easy to do it.

00:37:44: But it has such a big impact, because it covers so many things,

00:37:48: and then it also gives you

00:37:50: the view for next week, so

00:37:52: you always understand, "What are the priorities of my superiors," right?

00:37:56: So I can always do an adjustment of what I do.

00:38:00: Say like, "Hey, does this play into

00:38:04: what our CEO's vision is going for?

00:38:08: Am I working on the right project?

00:38:09: Do I need to reset my priorities?" Because if they say, "Hey, we're focusing

00:38:14: on, I don't know,

00:38:15: expanding in Southeast Asia," and then I'm just drafting a plan to do expansion in,

00:38:21: I don't know, the Middle East, then it's like, "Ah, maybe I need to

00:38:24: like rework my priorities." So there's so much in that small, little

00:38:30: piece of content that they're working on, and it's so easily done.

00:38:36: I think it's also a great example of

00:38:39: where podcasts work really well.

00:38:41: I would say definitely, maybe since the start of the pandemic,

00:38:45: and then now there's just so much other stuff going on in the world,

00:38:48: and everything, so people are really sick of seeing celebrities

00:38:52: or seeing influencers, or seeing rich people being rich.

00:38:55: And I think they just want to see normal people being normal.

00:38:58: "Hey, that's my coworker, Steve. That's his dog.

00:39:01: That's the book he recommended," just showing this human side.

00:39:04: I know, Henry Schein, one of the Staffbase customers,

00:39:08: they were like, "They have a dog page, and everyone loves that at Staffbase,

00:39:11: we bring our dogs to work."

00:39:12: So it's like, people just want this, "Hey, that's that person's dog" connection.

00:39:16: So I would say people are overthinking the accessibility of podcasting.

00:39:20: It's probably a lot more accessible than they think.

00:39:23: So as a final question today, if let's say I'm a comms team of one,

00:39:27: I have a really low budget, I never got started on podcasting, what

00:39:31: would you tell me to do?

00:39:34: I would firstly

00:39:35: ask, if it's a podcast, why do you want to do it?

00:39:38: What is the reason for you doing a podcast?

00:39:40: Because maybe you give me a reason where I would tell you, "Don't do it, then."

00:39:46: Because, for some cases, it's like, "Hey, I want to sign up new customers.

00:39:52: I want to use this as a lead generation tool."

00:39:54: Then I would be like, "Ah, there's probably better ways to do it."

00:39:57: But for internal comms, yes, why do you want to do it? And then,

00:40:02: who do you want to address?

00:40:04: Is this really the most critical group of people that you want to address?

00:40:08: So where do you have the most need to communicate?

00:40:12: Maybe, what community is underserved at the moment?

00:40:16: And then,

00:40:18: what is it that you want to talk to them about?

00:40:22: Part two of that question is, what do they actually want to hear?

00:40:26: Because it might be different to what you want to tell them.

00:40:29: And you should always focus on what they want to hear.

00:40:32: And then you can, you know,

00:40:34: if you establish a medium that they want to hear, then it becomes relevant to them.

00:40:37: Then you can think about weaving in what you want to send.

00:40:40: But don't think like,

00:40:41: "I have this information, I want to send this to this person.

00:40:44: And so I'm doing it." Like send them an email, that's fine.

00:40:46: But that's why people don't react to emails,

00:40:48: because you assume, just because you send it, that they want to read it.

00:40:53: Same with listening.

00:40:54: Focus on what they want to hear and not on what you want to send.

00:40:58: And then, if you understand what they want to listen to,

00:41:02: understand if you

00:41:03: have that content to provide to them.

00:41:06: If you don't have it on your own, find somebody who has it

00:41:10: and let them do the podcast.

00:41:11: As a comms person, you don't have to do everything.

00:41:14: You can also be the person empowering others to do it.

00:41:17: Tell my manager.

00:41:22: I started off as a writer of the podcast episodes,

00:41:24: and then I come on as the host, but I do like trying both sides.

00:41:27: Yeah, but that's the thing.

00:41:28: Yes, you can write it, and then it doesn't always have to be the same person.

00:41:33: You can be helping them to find their voice, and it can be

00:41:37: somebody from the sales team, or it can be somebody from HR, from wherever.

00:41:41: It doesn't always have to go through that bottleneck internal comms.

00:41:45: If you're already low on resources, then you're going to get in . . .

00:41:48: And we do have cases with customers that then say,

00:41:51: "Oh, I don't have even time to do it." Yeah, but you don't have to.

00:41:55: You don't have to be the person on the podcast.

00:41:58: Find somebody who loves to do a podcast

00:41:59: and use them to be a representation of your company.

00:42:03: So, final example, I was working with L'Oreal, and

00:42:08: that was the reason we were looking for solutions why I started this company.

00:42:13: So I was a co-host in a podcast.

00:42:15: The CMO team was doing a podcast.

00:42:17: I was working in e-commerce, but I was a podcast fan.

00:42:22: And so the CMO team always struggled

00:42:25: with connecting with the marketing teams in the different divisions.

00:42:29: So you had the divisional teams, and then you had the CMO team.

00:42:32: The CMO team always seemed like the team sitting in their ivory tower,

00:42:36: coming up with strategies that have no real-world value,

00:42:40: because the marketing teams in the divisions

00:42:43: that were on the ground, in the trenches, they knew exactly what was going on.

00:42:46: So we always had that conflict going on.

00:42:50: And so we said, "Okay, you know what?

00:42:51: We have somebody from the CMO team and me, and I'm

00:42:55: just going to play a role as somebody from the division.

00:43:00: And we have a conversation about, like,

00:43:02: 'Hey, this is the new thing that we want to do.' I'm going to ask you like,

00:43:05: 'Yeah, but how should that work for me in my division?

00:43:08: What are you thinking about?'" So they had a chance to explain

00:43:12: what they were doing.

00:43:12: So you're bringing people together, and you're showing unity by using this

00:43:17: format, and also challenging each other in the conversation of

00:43:23: understanding each other.

00:43:24: Those would be the questions that I would be asking you from a division side.

00:43:27: These are the questions that I would be asking you from a CMO side

00:43:31: that you have maybe 15 times a day anyway.

00:43:34: So we recreated that scenario as a podcast,

00:43:37: and it worked really well to get people to be engaged.

00:43:42: I wasn't part of a marketing team, but I love podcasts.

00:43:44: I helped them with it, and I just played a role in that.

00:43:48: You can be a host of a show.

00:43:49: Yeah. Later today, we have a recording, and I wrote this episode,

00:43:53: but someone else was recording it

00:43:54: because she just perfectly fits in with the guest.

00:43:57: And I love then, when I'm behind the scenes watching it,

00:44:00: they put their own spin on things.

00:44:01: But she's a super busy person, so it's like I gave her a bunch of notes.

00:44:04: I gave her questions, and then she takes it from there.

00:44:07: Hopefully not just a written-out script.

00:44:09: No, not a written script.

00:44:10: But I'm like, "Yeah, I know I can get too verbose."

00:44:12: So I'm like, "Okay, write everything down.

00:44:14: Pare it down."

00:44:14: And then I love it because they're just like,

00:44:16: "Okay, she gave me so much prep," but then it’s like,

00:44:18: "I'm going to do my own thing.

00:44:19: I'm going to ask questions.

00:44:19: I'm going to ask my own follow-ups." I love hearing and seeing that.

00:44:23: And that's perfect.

00:44:24: So you prepare them really well.

00:44:27: And then, usually in a corporate context, people just generally know

00:44:30: what they're talking about when they talk about a certain topic.

00:44:32: And usually when they are well-prepared,

00:44:36: they feel safe of just having a conversation.

00:44:39: So I think it's a great example that you're giving as well.

00:44:42: And so it becomes very easy to get into podcasting

00:44:47: and then, using the right tools, making it integratable.

00:44:51: So that's why we integrate our software with you, because we don't want to open up

00:44:55: new channels so it becomes easy to distribute it.

00:45:00: I think this is a

00:45:01: blueprint of how easy it can be to start a podcast.

00:45:04: It doesn't have to be the huge studio with 14 different camera angles,

00:45:10: a €900 microphone, and all that kind of stuff.

00:45:16: You can start very simple and easy and still come up with a great-quality product.

00:45:21: Yeah, my best advice would be, we have six hosts for the other podcast,

00:45:25: and I always pair the guest with a host when there's passion.

00:45:30: It's always on purpose who hosts which episode.

00:45:33: For example, we had to re-record this.

00:45:34: If I was like, "I didn't feel passionate about this conversation,"

00:45:37: I don't want to come in and re-record it because, to be honest . . .

00:45:40: It makes me feel very happy that you came on the podcast with me.

00:45:46: It would have been terrible if, for the second episode, it's somebody else

00:45:49: sitting, and it's like, "Yeah, I did the first one.

00:45:51: They were like, "We have to re-record it.

00:45:54: Do you want to do it?

00:45:54: Or we could put someone else." It's like, "If someone else came in, Max,

00:45:57: you were really boring the first time." I was like,

00:45:59: "Yes, we talked about Wu-Tang Clan.

00:46:00: We talked about "Key & Peele."

00:46:02: I can come in a second time." So I think a real connection, a real,

00:46:06: better word for vibe, but a real atmosphere.

00:46:10: So as we wrap up now, where can people find more about Hypecast?

00:46:15: Well, they can go

00:46:16: on hypecast.one on our website.

00:46:19: They can reach out via LinkedIn or via Instagram.

00:46:24: We can even drop my email and phone number

00:46:27: if they want in the show notes, and they can reach out if they want to.

00:46:31: I'm writing a weekly newsletter.

00:46:34: It's called "The Mic Drop" on audio.

00:46:37: And you can see me on stages or at the events at the VOICES or somewhere.

00:46:43: Feel free to reach out or just if you want to connect about podcasting,

00:46:45: I always love to talk about it.

00:46:47: And yeah, thanks for having me.

00:46:49: That was a great conversation. And it was a lot of fun.

00:46:53: Even though it's hot outside,

00:46:54: it wasn't as hot as in the podcast van that we were sitting in.

00:46:59: I can't live without this in Germany.

00:47:01: But can I ask you one final question?

00:47:02: Yes.

00:47:03: What is your favorite podcast?

00:47:05: Favorite podcast, dang.

00:47:08: My head is just completely blank at this moment.

00:47:11: I have to say the one I do, "Aspire to Inspire." But I really like,

00:47:14: because right now,

00:47:16: the one we're curating for Staffbase, I think it's really cool with the guests.

00:47:19: And my three favorite episodes, this isn't bullshit, it's passionate.

00:47:23: Joe Navarro, we had the former FBI agent on,

00:47:26: and he talked about nonverbal communications.

00:47:28: I was like, "It's so cool for me right now to see this guy,

00:47:31: who I admire." The recent Obama speech [writer] episode,

00:47:33: and Dr. David Burkus.

00:47:34: I was like, "These people coming on, they're spitting facts.

00:47:37: It's a really cool conversation.

00:47:39: These are admired people,

00:47:40: and they're just sitting down and talking for an hour."

00:47:42: And I thought that was really cool to hear.

00:47:44: By the way, you mentioned the FBI.

00:47:45: They have a corporate podcast, the FBI.

00:47:48: Yeah, they have a podcast just to

00:47:51: engage people

00:47:52: and show them what they are doing as an institution.

00:47:56: So there is a podcast that they have.

00:47:58: I don't know if they still have it, but it's interesting that you, as

00:48:01: an organization that generally is out in the open and talks

00:48:05: about a lot of stuff, to have a podcast to show people

00:48:08: what you're doing to understand, "Hey, this is employer branding.

00:48:11: This is also community-building.

00:48:12: Again, stakeholder management." There's probably a bunch of people

00:48:16: that are interested in "What am I, as a taxpayer, paying money for,

00:48:20: and what are they doing?"

00:48:21: So they want to make sure that you understand why the FBI is relevant

00:48:25: and that they're doing a great job, so they started a podcast.

00:48:28: So even if you don't want to be out in the open,

00:48:32: a podcast is still a great way to convey messages.

00:48:35: Oh and one more thing, when I learned German, I was listening to German podcasts.

00:48:38: Like "Die Zeit" magazine or newspaper, I listened to their podcast.

00:48:43: I was like, "Okay, now I'm learning German by listening to people talking."

00:48:46: I had to slow it down a little bit for some of them,

00:48:48: but I was like, "This is very helpful."

00:48:50: Oh, very good.

00:48:51: Yeah, so it's edutainment.

00:48:53: Perfect. That's what podcasts are great for.

00:48:55: There we go.

00:48:56: So yeah, go out and listen to a podcast.

00:48:59: It's always fun. There's so much good stuff out there.

00:49:01: Maybe we can link some of your favorite podcasts on LinkedIn as well to share.

00:49:04: Oh, yes, for sure.

00:49:05: Yes, 100%.

00:49:07: Thank you so much for having me, Emma. It's always a pleasure.

00:49:09: Thank you so much.

00:49:09: This was You've Got Comms, and we hope that you guys join us again next time.