Digital Employee Experience: From Access to True Connection

00:00:00: I think making sure that

00:00:02: employees are at the heart of this,

00:00:03: when we're talking about

00:00:04: a digital employee experience.

00:00:06: Digital is part of it,

00:00:07: but it's all about what that individual

00:00:09: employee does experience,

00:00:11: so I think

00:00:11: organizations that

00:00:13: know who their employees are,

00:00:16: will be the most successful.

00:00:24: Good morning, Lisa.

00:00:25: How are you?

00:00:26: I am very well, thank you.

00:00:28: How is it where you are?

00:00:31: You know, New York

00:00:33: this time of year is absolutely beautiful.

00:00:35: How's London?

00:00:37: I don't know whether you can tell from this video, but it's super gray today.

00:00:41: It's really dark outside.

00:00:42: And I find that I get this time of the year every year.

00:00:47: I'm already missing the sunny evenings and the bright mornings.

00:00:50: At least we can put jumpers on.

00:00:52: It's nice and cozy.

00:00:54: That's true.

00:00:55: That's true. We're getting there.

00:00:56: We're getting there.

00:00:57: Well Lisa, thank you for joining us today.

00:01:00: And to everybody listening, welcome to this week's

00:01:02: episode of You've Got Comms.

00:01:06: Lisa, I will not introduce you.

00:01:09: I will let you do the honor of introducing yourself. Please.

00:01:13: Thank you.

00:01:14: Well I am an independent digital person.

00:01:17: I'd say digital generalist, but that's not really true.

00:01:21: I help organizations improve the way they communicate

00:01:25: through their internal platforms like their intranets and their broader

00:01:29: digital workplace.

00:01:30: And I also help organizations improve the accessibility

00:01:34: of their information, whether that's talking to people

00:01:37: inside their organization or their customers and other stakeholders.

00:01:43: All right.

00:01:44: Awesome.

00:01:44: Thanks. Again, thank you for joining us today, Lisa.

00:01:47: So, to start off with hard-hitting question number one, are you ready?

00:01:53: Okay. I'll give it a go.

00:01:55: Okay. So as an expert, Lisa, how would you describe

00:02:01: the digital employee experience in a few easy

00:02:05: digestible sentences?

00:02:08: That's a good question.

00:02:11: And I think

00:02:12: today the digital employee experience

00:02:15: is how people actually experience their organization.

00:02:19: It's very rare that we have an experience that is only face-to-face

00:02:25: nowadays and isn't actually facilitated by technology,

00:02:29: but it's how people experience

00:02:31: their organization via technology, really.

00:02:33: From the recruitment process to their onboarding,

00:02:37: managing everyday tasks, and then if they leave,

00:02:40: it's the sum total of all of those touch points.

00:02:45: And for some, it's probably the very way

00:02:48: that they work as their entire working experience.

00:02:52: It's done via these digital channels now.

00:02:54: So, can you elaborate a little bit more on what you mean by making experiences

00:02:59: accessible for employees?

00:03:02: Sure.

00:03:04: When we think about accessibility in the workplace, I think a lot of people

00:03:09: might immediately think about ramps, so the colleagues in wheelchairs

00:03:13: can get into their office and maybe a lift to get up to their desk.

00:03:17: But when we're thinking about an accessible digital workplace,

00:03:22: it's also making sure that people are able

00:03:25: to access the information they need to do their jobs

00:03:29: and that they're able to understand that information when it's presented to them.

00:03:34: Awesome.

00:03:34: Thank you.

00:03:36: And I would have to assume that

00:03:38: comms, HR, IT are

00:03:42: the teams most invested in DEX.

00:03:46: I guess, what are their specific roles in your eyes?

00:03:51: I think the consultant's answer on that would probably be, "It depends."

00:03:55: It depends on the organization, but the digital employee

00:03:58: experience normally sits somewhere between the three.

00:04:01: I've worked in some organizations where it's owned by IT, others

00:04:06: where HR take the lead, others where communications teams

00:04:11: have the overarching responsibility for it,

00:04:14: or the head of professional services

00:04:17: that sits above those three departments.

00:04:21: And I think whatever the actual setup, the most successful

00:04:26: organizations have a really strong working

00:04:30: relationship between those departments.

00:04:33: They might have a digital workplace working group

00:04:38: or a change board or a board that oversees the delivery

00:04:42: and the overall management of that experience

00:04:46: with one person actually ultimately owning it as the service owner

00:04:49: who might sit in IT or might sit somewhere else in the organization.

00:04:54: Yeah, it's interesting.

00:04:55: We obviously work with clients that operate in different ways

00:04:59: when it comes to that kind of technology, I guess.

00:05:03: Based on your experience, what kind of relationship

00:05:08: have you seen work best, or what kind of structure have you seen work best?

00:05:12: I think one person

00:05:14: needs to have overall responsibility.

00:05:17: And actually, one person needs to be overall accountable,

00:05:21: but then there needs to be at least one person, if not a whole team of people,

00:05:26: that are actually responsible, have the time and resources

00:05:30: and the mandate to be able

00:05:33: to manage that experience.

00:05:36: They need to have access to the right colleagues.

00:05:38: They need to have the time to be able to make sure

00:05:42: that the platforms are running as expected

00:05:46: and to have that employee-centered approach.

00:05:51: I think making sure that

00:05:54: employees are at the heart of this.

00:05:56: When we're talking about a digital employee experience, digital

00:06:00: is part of it, but it's all about what that individual employee does experience,

00:06:04: so I think organizations that

00:06:08: know who their employees are, will be the most successful.

00:06:13: It's an interesting cat and mouse, isn't it?

00:06:15: One of the ways to best get to know your employees

00:06:17: is to effectively communicate with them, yet

00:06:20: the only way to effectively communicate with them is to know them.

00:06:23: So, it's a bit of a finger trap but thank you.

00:06:27: I appreciate the thoughtful answer.

00:06:30: On to frontline.

00:06:33: So, frontline employees often don't have

00:06:38: the same access to intranets, to desktops, corporate email.

00:06:43: So, what unique challenges do you see in delivering

00:06:46: a great digital employee experience for them?

00:06:50: That is a really good question.

00:06:51: And again, it does depend on the organization,

00:06:55: but I think something that's almost universal, wherever I've worked,

00:06:59: whether I've worked in-house or working with organizations, I think the biggest

00:07:04: challenge for frontline staff is around the identity of who they work for.

00:07:09: A lot of the time you'll find that people really closely identify with their team

00:07:14: or their local branch or their office, or maybe it's their business unit,

00:07:20: but there's a bit of a disconnect

00:07:21: between them as individuals and the broader organization.

00:07:25: And I mean, 9 times out of 10, that probably is okay

00:07:28: because most of the time those are the people

00:07:31: that they're interacting with on a day-to-day basis,

00:07:35: but when they do need to access, whether it's information about their

00:07:40: payroll, whether it's corporate news, whether it's being able

00:07:44: to book their holiday, those digital experiences do need to work.

00:07:49: Otherwise, that kind of broader organization is seen as

00:07:54: a bit more of a

00:07:55: headache rather than something that's a benefit to be part of.

00:07:59: And I think something else, so

00:08:02: another challenge that frontline staff have

00:08:05: is the actual physical access of it.

00:08:08: How do you get on an intranet when you're actually not at a desk?

00:08:12: It might be that people are expected to bring their own devices,

00:08:15: which has its own challenges, because encouraging people

00:08:18: to actually download apps to their own devices can be a bit of

00:08:22: an uphill struggle.

00:08:24: They might not be able to access all of the systems

00:08:27: they need from their own device, and they have to go

00:08:29: and find access somewhere else,

00:08:31: or they might have a corporate mobile

00:08:34: or corporate laptop or corporate tablet,

00:08:38: which might also be locked down, so they can't actually use it

00:08:41: to do a lot of the other tasks that they need to do.

00:08:43: It might be limited, or it might be something

00:08:45: that they just don't want to be caring about, or

00:08:48: they can't be seen to be on their phones while they're doing their jobs.

00:08:51: So, trying to find the time for people to be able

00:08:54: to access those internal systems, whether it's in their breaks, whether it's

00:08:58: if they've been given dedicated time during the week, or whether

00:09:00: they're being expected to look at stuff at home,

00:09:03: thinking about how staff are working, I think it's really important

00:09:07: when you're thinking about communicating with them.

00:09:10: And I think there's one more point

00:09:12: on that, actually, is

00:09:14: where they are doing that job might be super noisy.

00:09:18: It might be a really busy concourse in a station.

00:09:21: It might be a really loud factory.

00:09:23: It might be that they're up a mountain and they've actually got really poor

00:09:26: internet connection.

00:09:28: Or if it's a noisy environment, that information

00:09:32: can't be presented via sound because it just won't work for people.

00:09:36: Apps that rely on someone talking,

00:09:39: or if there are audible notifications, or if there's a video,

00:09:44: there needs to be a way for people to access this without

00:09:48: being able to hear it.

00:09:50: Yeah.

00:09:51: And I think one of the things that you've brought up

00:09:54: a few different times now is access, right?

00:09:58: And when we think about convincing a frontline audience to download

00:10:02: something to your phone, which is a point that you were making before, sometimes

00:10:06: that's a tougher sell than one might think.

00:10:10: Even though it's something that has a lot in it for that end user,

00:10:15: what kind of strategies have you seen effective in convincing

00:10:19: a frontline that this is a technology that will ultimately be helpful to you?

00:10:25: I've seen it work a few different ways.

00:10:28: The first thing would be actually making sure

00:10:30: that there's something in it for the person that's downloading it.

00:10:34: You know, there used to be a standing joke

00:10:38: many years ago that the most visited page on our intranet

00:10:41: was what was on the menu in the staff canteen that day.

00:10:45: Now, I don't know how many offices still have staff canteens, but

00:10:49: is there something that people really want to know about

00:10:52: and are they able to access it via that platform?

00:10:55: I think, also things like being able

00:11:00: to easily do logistics, whether it's

00:11:04: scheduling or rotas

00:11:06: or being able to book annual leave or being able to see how much

00:11:10: holiday allowance you've got left, looking at your pay slips.

00:11:14: If you're able to access

00:11:16: things that you need to do your job using these apps,

00:11:19: there's a natural incentive for people to then use it.

00:11:23: Yes. I can tell you one thing for sure,

00:11:26: I log into my intranet, and I look at my pay data.

00:11:29: That is number one for me, and that's what's in it for me, but thank you, Lisa.

00:11:33: I appreciate that.

00:11:36: All right, on to the next question,

00:11:38: shall we?

00:11:41: What practical steps

00:11:44: can organizations take to make sure frontline workers feel connected

00:11:47: and supported digitally even if they're not sitting at a desk?

00:11:53: Oh, practical steps is a brilliant question . . .

00:11:55: And of course, there's a little bit of overlap

00:11:58: between this question and the last, but I guess how would you actually do it?

00:12:02: How would you make . . . what's a good analogy here?

00:12:05: How would you bake the cake?

00:12:08: So if we're talking about a cake, I love that as an analogy.

00:12:11: Let's see.

00:12:12: So the ingredients for a great employee experience, you've got information

00:12:19: that is well-written,

00:12:23: is only the amount of sugar

00:12:25: that you need and you're not using too much of it.

00:12:29: I think

00:12:31: people are busy and they are overwhelmed and they have lots of notifications

00:12:37: and there are lots of things that people need to be thinking about.

00:12:40: So particularly if you're frontline, I think front-loading, I'm going away from

00:12:45: the cake here a bit, but I think front-loading

00:12:48: your content with the key information.

00:12:52: What is the stuff that people need to know?

00:12:54: Make sure that that information is up front and not buried

00:12:57: at the back of the oven.

00:13:01: I think that works.

00:13:02: The cooling tray?

00:13:05: Into the center of the cake?

00:13:06: I'm not sure.

00:13:07: Yeah.

00:13:08: I think where it's possible to do this,

00:13:12: and it might be outside of your influence, but having

00:13:16: single sign-on where possible.

00:13:18: I know one of the biggest frustrations a lot of people find

00:13:21: is having to reauthenticate multiple times a day,

00:13:24: which can be a real barrier to getting information,

00:13:28: so making the actual physical sign-in process as seamless as possible

00:13:32: would be something that I'd work with the technology team to make happen.

00:13:38: And I think also

00:13:42: making sure that you've

00:13:45: spent some time with the people that are accessing your information,

00:13:49: getting out, doing some user research, following colleagues,

00:13:53: actually shadowing them to see what their day is like, to help you understand

00:13:58: at what point they're able

00:14:00: to access this information, I think it's really valuable.

00:14:04: Something that I noticed working with a recent client

00:14:07: is that whilst in the head office lots of people had big monitors,

00:14:11: they had their laptop hooked up to a large monitor, but actually,

00:14:15: if you were just getting your laptop out in the break room, if you had a laptop,

00:14:20: the resolution of the screen meant that those beautifully designed

00:14:24: pages on the intranet actually showed up in a completely different order

00:14:28: because it was already a break point from a mobile point of view.

00:14:32: So making sure that you've tested your content

00:14:35: and your comms with the people that are reading it

00:14:39: and making adjustments where needed would be the biggest thing, I think.

00:14:45: Awesome.

00:14:46: And obviously,

00:14:48: I work in a corporate culture, I have for a long time,

00:14:51: and you brought up the analogy with the cake

00:14:55: of not having too much sugar.

00:14:57: And I guess, from my perspective, I'm just curious to hear your thoughts,

00:15:02: how do you find the balance of noise versus not enough information?

00:15:08: How have you found that balance in the past,

00:15:10: especially with a frontline audience or an audience that otherwise doesn't

00:15:14: have the same access as everybody else?

00:15:18: I think the balance is always a challenge,

00:15:20: and it works better in some organizations than others.

00:15:24: I think asking for feedback and testing,

00:15:28: seeing what lands, looking at your analytics, seeing what

00:15:32: resonates, seeing where you're getting the responses

00:15:35: to things, where you're seeing people opening stuff, where you're getting

00:15:39: the engagement can help you make better decisions in the future,

00:15:44: but I think also

00:15:46: being able to target information to the right groups is great.

00:15:50: Most people say, "I get too many emails," or "too many notifications,"

00:15:53: and then they say, "But nobody told me about this."

00:15:57: You know it’s kind of

00:15:58: basic comms of the right information to the right people at the right time,

00:16:03: using that targeting that's available to you,

00:16:06: not just relying on managers to cascade things but giving them

00:16:10: the tools that they need so that they know what to say to who as well.

00:16:14: And the other thing, I guess, is having shorter messages,

00:16:18: and if people need more information, either going onto the intranet

00:16:21: for more information or to a roundup bulletin.

00:16:26: Assuming that you've said something once doesn't mean that people have read it,

00:16:30: so I think having multiple touch points and making sure that information

00:16:35: is presented to people,

00:16:37: whether they see it now or whether they see it at the end of the week,

00:16:41: is a way to make sure that the message gets through

00:16:45: Yeah.

00:16:46: The marketing . . .

00:16:46: What is it? The marketing rule of seven?

00:16:49: It takes seven touch points to potentially convert someone.

00:16:52: Oh, seven.

00:16:53: I don't know if I've heard that one. That's lovely.

00:16:54: Thank you.

00:16:55: Is it seven?

00:16:56: I thought it was seven.

00:16:57: I mean it sounds legit.

00:16:58: I just don't think I've heard it before.

00:17:00: I sounded confident when I said it.

00:17:02: Maybe it's right, but probably not. I don't know.

00:17:04: I guess we'll find out.

00:17:05: Thanks to the marketing team that's going to edit this. We'll see.

00:17:08: We'll see if it makes the cut.

00:17:09: Thank you.

00:17:10: I'm sorry for the ad hoc questions.

00:17:12: I genuinely wanted to hear your perspective, so I appreciate that.

00:17:18: Oh, boy.

00:17:20: We're at this question.

00:17:22: This is the question of 2025 and probably the question of the decade.

00:17:27: So, Lisa?

00:17:30: Yes.

00:17:31: How do you see AI shaping the digital employee experience in the next few years?

00:17:36: Will it help?

00:17:37: Should we be cautious? What would you say?

00:17:40: Yes.

00:17:42: Yes. To all of the above.

00:17:45: It can help.

00:17:46: We should be cautious.

00:17:49: We're talking about AI, and we're particularly in 2025,

00:17:53: thinking about it from a generative AI, large language model point of view.

00:17:58: I feel like over the last few years, a lot of the time we've been using AI

00:18:02: without realizing it,

00:18:03: whether that's using PowerPoint's built-in AI designer option,

00:18:08: which has some suggestions for how you're presenting your information,

00:18:14: or using something like Hemingway or Word's built-in

00:18:17: editor to get suggestions on how to write more clearly.

00:18:22: I mean, Word's editor and Hemingway are excellent

00:18:26: to help you write more clearly and accessibly for your users,

00:18:30: and I think there are tools already

00:18:33: available that can help us

00:18:36: provide clarity.

00:18:38: I think we should also be cautious when we're asking a chatbot

00:18:42: or an LLM to provide factual information.

00:18:46: So, a use case I've seen lots of people investigating

00:18:51: but not really having success with, is deploying internal chatbots

00:18:56: to provide definitive answers from their intranets.

00:19:01: If it's using generative AI, it's guessing the best result

00:19:06: based on previous questions and based on the information it's been trained on.

00:19:12: And I worked with a client last year

00:19:15: who had built an internal chatbot, and you could ask it . . .

00:19:18: and it was based on, I think it was based on ChatGPT.

00:19:21: And you could ask the same question

00:19:24: on different days and it would give you a different answer.

00:19:28: And that's because it's not like the chatbots

00:19:31: that we were told about 5 or 10 years ago, which after some training

00:19:36: only gave answers based on the information available to them.

00:19:41: You can use things like RAG, which is the

00:19:45: retrieval-augmented generation, I think it stands for,

00:19:48: to limit the sources and limit

00:19:51: the answers that your AI will give,

00:19:56: but I've seen lots of challenges with this

00:20:00: because if it's using generative AI, it's generating answers each time.

00:20:04: It might point to a source, which is great,

00:20:07: but it also might generate a source,

00:20:10: unless you've specified upfront not to do that.

00:20:13: So, I think

00:20:15: anybody that says, "I have an AI chatbot for you

00:20:19: and it will answer all the questions and you'll be able to significantly reduce

00:20:24: the number of requests that come through to your HR

00:20:27: or your IT service desk,"

00:20:31: I'd approach that with caution because it really

00:20:33: depends on the specific cases you've got in hand.

00:20:37: And I think something that I've seen that's been great is, so,

00:20:41: PowerPoint as an example,

00:20:42: and now it's also built into SharePoint and some other tools,

00:20:47: is helping you with your accessibility,

00:20:50: so images should have alternative text.

00:20:53: It should have a description if you're not able to access that image.

00:20:57: And AI is now able to give not a bad first

00:21:00: guess at the contents of that image.

00:21:03: What it can't do, though, is it

00:21:06: can't guess your intent very well.

00:21:10: So if you imagine you've got a photo of, let's say,

00:21:16: the Statue of Liberty, and it's a photo of the Statue of Liberty on a sunny day.

00:21:21: If your office is in New York,

00:21:24: you might be using that image to say, well, it's a sunny day here today.

00:21:29: If you're using that image

00:21:33: to illustrate a

00:21:34: news article from a global perspective,

00:21:37: it might be giving the context of the New York office.

00:21:41: So AI can really help you with

00:21:44: writing alt text and suggesting this kind of information.

00:21:48: It's better than nothing, but you need a clear starting point,

00:21:52: and you need to check it to make sure that the answer it's

00:21:55: given you has the intent that you have for that picture.

00:21:59: Awesome.

00:22:00: Thank you.

00:22:01: No, I appreciate that perspective.

00:22:02: It's funny with AI, it's become the buzzword.

00:22:06: It's like, I want that thing.

00:22:09: It's like walking, not to use cars as like a good proxy,

00:22:14: but you walk into a car dealership and you say, "I want car."

00:22:18: It's like, okay, well, what do you want the car to do?

00:22:21: Do you want it to create a PowerPoint presentation for you?

00:22:24: Do you want it to surface HR data?

00:22:26: Do you want it to automate XYZ process?

00:22:29: It's almost this universe where we've gotten stuck in the idea

00:22:32: of the thing versus the outcome that we're driving towards.

00:22:36: It's fascinating.

00:22:37: It's a fascinating time that we're living in with agentic AI.

00:22:40: But thank you for your expertise. I appreciate it.

00:22:42: So, if a comms team only had 90 days to fix their world,

00:22:49: what are the first two to three things

00:22:51: you would change first?

00:22:54: I think the first thing I'd want to do is understand

00:22:58: who I'm talking to and how they're receiving that information.

00:23:03: I'd want to go out and speak to users, do some research, go out on site visits,

00:23:08: do a survey, and really try and understand what people's pain points are.

00:23:13: Because if you know what people need, not just what they say

00:23:16: they want, like they say, "Well, I want a faster car, obviously,"

00:23:20: you can identify what your users need

00:23:23: and then put together a bit of a roadmap and hopefully have

00:23:26: some really quick wins as well as some of that bigger picture stuff.

00:23:30: You might not be able to solve everything in 90 days, but

00:23:33: I think showing up, asking people what it is that they need,

00:23:38: and then having something you're able to deliver soon.

00:23:41: It might be that people don't know about some key information

00:23:45: that's available, so maybe there's something else

00:23:47: you can add on your intranet or add some guidance.

00:23:51: What are some examples of quick wins?

00:23:53: What are some examples of quick wins in your experience?

00:23:56: It's a really good question.

00:23:58: So, the quickest wins,

00:24:01: or at least the most visible wins,

00:24:04: might be an update on your homepage.

00:24:07: I saw an organization

00:24:09: who the homepage, over time, had built into this massive

00:24:16: mess of links off to things

00:24:18: and people had added things and nobody ever wants to take anything away.

00:24:23: So I think taking a look and seeing what no longer serves

00:24:27: your organization's needs and taking it off and helping

00:24:31: free up some space, helping give people a bit of a clearer journey can help.

00:24:36: I think also providing a page of . . .

00:24:41: when I say a page, it might be that it's just a box of useful links.

00:24:46: It depends what people define as useful.

00:24:48: Useful is a weird term, isn't it?

00:24:50: But I think being able to signpost people

00:24:54: really helps them find the information they need.

00:24:58: Absolutely.

00:24:59: Thank you. Appreciate it.

00:25:01: Fun question.

00:25:02: I like that question. It's a tough question.

00:25:05: So, for our listeners out there, what's the first step that they can take

00:25:12: to improve the digital employee experience across their organization?

00:25:16: Apart from listening to your users,

00:25:19: I think regardless of the platform that you're using,

00:25:23: something that is within our control, particularly

00:25:26: if we're communications people, is to check our language.

00:25:31: Brilliantly accessible platforms

00:25:32: and experiences are only as good as the content that's on them,

00:25:36: so make sure that your information is as easy to read as possible.

00:25:40: I like to talk about plain language, which is the language

00:25:44: that your audience understands the first time they read it,

00:25:48: so spelling out acronyms, avoiding jargon where possible,

00:25:52: and making sure that headings and labels are nice and clear, so

00:25:56: that busy people can understand

00:25:59: what it is that they need to do right away.

00:26:01: Sometimes that's a bit of a,

00:26:04: it feels like an unlearning

00:26:06: from the way that we've been taught to write in the past,

00:26:09: and I know that a lot of the time senior stakeholders will say, "Well,

00:26:13: we've got an organization full of people who are all well-educated.

00:26:18: We don't need to dumb this down, Lisa," which is a

00:26:22: terrible term in itself, but

00:26:26: it's making sure that . . .

00:26:28: everybody is busy.

00:26:29: There's research that suggests

00:26:31: that even lawyers prefer reading stuff in plain language

00:26:35: and making it as easy as possible for people

00:26:37: to get what they need so they can carry on with their day.

00:26:40: I think that's the number one step I'd ask everyone to take.

00:26:46: Preach.

00:26:47: Tell you what,

00:26:48: I've read a lot of corporate emails, a lot of corporate posts over the years.

00:26:51: To all the communicators out there, as an end user

00:26:54: reading communications on a daily basis, that is great advice.

00:26:58: Thank you, Lisa.

00:26:59: Finally,

00:27:01: Lisa, we're coming up to the end of our time.

00:27:03: Thank you again.

00:27:05: So, where can people connect with you and learn more about you?

00:27:09: I am very online.

00:27:12: You can find me on LinkedIn or on Bluesky

00:27:16: or on Instagram @lisariemers.

00:27:19: My website is lisariemers.com.

00:27:23: I've got a book on accessible communication.

00:27:25: It's been co-written with the wonderful Matisse Hamel-Nelis,

00:27:28: which is available to order now on Amazon or wherever you buy your books.

00:27:33: Please do connect with me. I'd love to talk.

00:27:36: Awesome.

00:27:36: Well, Lisa, thank you very much for your time today.

00:27:40: And to everybody listening, thank you very much for your time.

00:27:42: We hope you walked away with something valuable today,

00:27:45: and I hope you all have a great rest of your day.

00:27:46: Thanks again for listening to the You've Got Comms Podcast.

00:27:50: Thank you, Lisa.

00:27:51: Thank you for having me.